maria-olivia
Majesty
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The late Barones Marie Hélène de Rothschlld was born van Zuylen. Are they Dutch Nobels?
[...]The registration form contained the field 'title', [...] or probably academic title but the field contained the following options:
Baron
Barones
Graaf
Gravin
Hertog
Hertogin
Markies
Markiezin
Prins
Prinses
Ridder
And the next field was 'predicate', with the options jonkheer/jonkvrouw...[...]
The Royal Decree of May 15th 1996 described them without any title or prefix, so they had no any title in the Dutch municipal registers.
"
[....]
Have approved and understand:
1.
Carlos Javier Bernardo de Bourbon de Parme and Jaime Bernardo de Bourbon de Parme beforementioned, and all their descendants in the male lineage, both male as well female;
Margarita Maria Beatriz de Bourbon de Parme and Maria Carolina Christina de Bourbon de Parme beforementioned, for their persons exclusively;
to incorporate them into the Nobility of the Netherlands with the title of prince and princess and the prefix Royal Highness.
[...]
The king is Duke of Limburg I believe.
Only the title of Ridder (knight) has no feminine form. The daughter of a knight is a jonkvrouw.
The Queen has approved the following Arms to be used by the family de Bourbon de Parme: https://www.adelinnederland.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Bourbon-de-Parme-wapen-De.jpg
Indeed.Tatiana Maria said:Then I imagine the wife of a knight is a Mevrouw?
Willem-Alexander's only titles are Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer van Amsberg.
But as nobility is hereditary in the male lineage, all noble titles de facto became ended with the death of Willem III of Orange-Nassau, King of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg in 1890. His daughter Queen Wilhelmina could use these titles as daughter but not pass it with her death in 1962.
Additionally, the government promised that Jonkvrouw/Jonkheer van Amsberg would be included in the "etc. etc. etc." If the decision stands, we can expect the oldest child of Catharina-Amalia will be a Jonkvrouw or Jonkheer van Amsberg even if she or he is not be in the male lineage of Claus van Amsberg.
Interesting as the three princesses themselves are not Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. According to the act of consent for their parents' marriage they are only princess of the Netherlands and princess of Orange-Nassau; unlike their paternal cousins who are count(ess) of Orange-Nassau and jonkvrouw/heer of Amsberg.
What is the status of those who received Dutch knighthoods since 1996 are they treated as nobles as in the UK?
Interesting as the three princesses themselves are not Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. According to the act of consent for their parents' marriage they are only princess of the Netherlands and princess of Orange-Nassau; unlike their paternal cousins who are count(ess) of Orange-Nassau and jonkvrouw/heer of Amsberg.
In "egalitarian" Netherlands it was established by the Govdtnment that the Nobility is a historic institute with historic rules: the Dutch decided not to change these rules. After all: when the policy is to phase it out slowly (the Nobility is declining since it is "frozen" since WWII) it makes no sense to open all doors my taking away all (gender) limitations on hereditary nobility.
Another question I have is whether Jonkvrouw/heer is considered a title or merely an honorific predicate for untitled nobility. I know that there are different interpretations in Belgium and the Netherlands, but I would appreciate if other posters could clarify this issue.
In the UK, with respect to succession to peerages, the courts have adjudicated that if a legally married couple has a child conceived by IVF with a donated egg or sperm using a licensed clinic, or if a child is born of a surrogate mother who then legally transfers parental rights to the couple, then the child is their legal son or daughter, but cannot inherit the title or any estate that is linked to the title if applicable. That is true regardless of whether either one or both of the legal parents are the biological parents of the child.
I assume the Netherlands would perhaps take a more progressive view though.
I am not sure if they would -for the nobility at least. The Spanish change for noble families where the eldest child -regardless of the sex- succeeds was not copied in The Netherlands for example. AFAIK the policy of the state is to slowly let the nobility fade out/ become extinct, so making titles easier to inherit does not make sense in that respect.
Indeed, the Nobility is seen as a historical institute with historical rules. Effectively a glass dome has been put over the Nobility with three exceptions:
1.
New creations: only members of the Royal House.
2.
New incorporations: only nationalized foreigners holding a title from a country with a similar system of Nobility.
3.
New recognitions: only persons who can claim to descend in paternal (male) lineage from Nobility in the Low Countries before 1795.
Opening female succession would mean extending and expanding Nobility in perpetuity and that is not exactly what Government wants since WWII.
Nonetheless the Government expanded the inheritance of titles of nobility when they opened inheritance to out-of-wedlock and adoptive children.
The Government did expand it to children out of wedlock as the Civic Code no longer makes a difference in legal and illegal children, as a quite considerable part of the population is not even married but have children anyway. All children are legal children for law.
The expansion to adopted children was very much against the wishes and the intention of the Government. It is the result of a jurisprudence in a juridical case in which an adopted child started a lawsuit against the State: he not only wished to be known with his adoptive father's surname but also with his adoptive father's predicate and/or title.
The viewpoint of the Government is in the Explanatory Memorandum attched to the Nobility Act 1994: 'The aim has been to maintain the policy with regard to Nobility and the prevailing Nobility Act. The existing Royal Decrees, in which the right of nobility have been implied, will be maintained. No re-codification of Nobility as such has been made.
In the opinion of the Government, the Nobility must be seen as a historically grown institution, recognized and protected by law, which can only be maintained as a historical institution indeed, but which loses its foundation if one tries to modify or organize it according to contemporary ideas.'
The Government did expand it to children out of wedlock as the Civic Code no longer makes a difference in legal and illegal children, as a quite considerable part of the population is not even married but have children anyway. All children are legal children for law.
Yes, titles of nobility can only be passed on through male-lineage; that hasn't changed.
Under the Dutch Civil Code, the child of a nobleman must carry the surname of their noble father to inherit his nobility. So, the change in the Netherlands to give nobility to male-line descendants born out of wedlock will, in all likelihood, increase the number of members of the nobility much more rapidly than a hypothetical change to give women equal rights to transmit nobility would have, because approximately one in two children is now born to unmarried parents whereas only a small minority of children carry the surname of their mother.
The question was about the Civil Code, not titles of nobility (because, according to Duc_et_Pair's post, the former was used as an argument for the latter in regards to children born out of wedlock).
Your reasoning seems to assume that laws don't impact people's behavior. My assumption is that at least some people adapt their behavior to the law; so while they might now not use the mother's name because she cannot pass on her noble title; if she suddenly could it is not unlike that many more will decide to pick hers over his.
I wouldn't be surprised if at least previous to the law being changed, the number of children born out of wedlock among noble men was much lower than the general population, so I don't think the decrease would have gone as fast as you seem to suggest.
That's not impossible, but again the argument is also relevant to the change to nobility law which allowed unmarried fathers to pass on their titles. Prior to the law being changed, one could argue that if they could pass on their noble titles to children born out of wedlock, then more noblemen would have or legally acknowledge out of wedlock children.
Regarding the possible increase in maternal surnames, there is no way of knowing for a fact how removing the gender discrimination for titles would affect the choice of names, but my assumption is that it would make little difference. In Germany, a country with shared historical ties to the Netherlands, titles are part of the legal name and, as with other names, can be passed by women to their children. That being the case, most titled women continue to have their children take the name of their father alone.
The nobility laws changed in the 90s to include children that were born out of wedlock, they can now inherit titles (which Willem-Alexander's cousin Carlos knows very well given that his son that he has no relationship with used to become a Royal Highness and prince de Bourbon de Parme).
I am not sure what the rules are regarding children born from other parents than the one in a marriage in the case of nobility (for example adoption, egg cell donation, sperm cell donation (or both) from either a known or unknown donor etc). Nonetheless, as the PM said: that will be discussed if the need ever arises.
So suddenly there would be Grafen and Gräfinnen Pálffy de Erdõd walking around, who are not at all a male-line descendant to a Pálffy de Erdõd. That is a situation the Dutch Government finds "undesireable" and undermining the historic institution of Nobility.
But in the Netherlands a title of Nobility or a predicate is a separate part of a surname. It is a title or a predicate. So a gravin Wolff-Metternich can pass her surname to her sons or daughters but not her title. Her children will be Mr and Ms Wolff-Metternich, no graaf / gravin (count / countess) and no hooggeboren heer / vrouwe (highborn lord / lady).
In the Year Review 2021 the High Council of Nobility gave it's opinion about a Bill in which parents are free to give their children the name of the mother, or a combination of both names.
The High Council of Nobility noted that the title is connected to a surname. A change of surnames, even when both parents are noble, must lead to a loss of nobility.
For an example, the father is a jonkheer Van Lidth de Jeude, the mother is a gravin de Marchant et d'Ansembourg. As nobility is hereditary via the paternal lineage, the children are jonkheer (jonkvrouw) van Lidth de Jeude.
Would the parents use the new legal possibilities to give the child both names or the name of the mother, then that is possible but without the predicate or title as it does no longer connect to the original surname in the Royal Decree and the Letters Patent establishing nobility.
In the same Year Review the High Council of Nobility asked attention of the Government for consequences of a less strict Transgender Act. As Nobility is hereditary via the male lineage, the offspring of a female noble becoming a male noble can not mean her (now his) offspring are heirs of the body male.
Then the High Council of Nobility was pleased to give a positive advice to recognition of native Nobility. In 1825 three brothers of the Friesian family Lauta van Aysma were recognized to belong to older existing Nobility (before 1795) and admitted into the Peerage of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, untitled and with the predicate jonkheer (jonkvrouw).
Thanks to investigation in archives and additional DNA proof it was found that the requester had an ancestor whom was a half-brother to these three Lauta van Aysma gentlemen. The family was seen as extinct since 1898 as the three brothers' male lineages ended. Their father however married a second time. His fourth son was never admitted into the registers. Possibly an omission back then. Thanks to documents and DNA the High Council gave a positive recommendation to the King. In the meantime the King has been pleased to recognize François Lauta van Aysma as belonging to the Nobility indeed. Sadly the newly revived dynasty Lauta van Aysma will become extinct again as the new jonkheer has no sons.
Op wetgevingsgebied zijn er twee wetsvoorstellen die de aandacht van de Raad vragen vanwege hun mogelijke gevolgen voor adellijke personen. Het eerste betreft het Wetsvoorstel dubbele achternamen, waarbij ouders hun kinderen voortaan hun beider geslachtsnamen kunnen geven. Aangezien bij adellijke geslachtsnamen sprake is van een koppeling tussen naam en titel of predicaat zou in gevallen waarbij een of beide ouders van adel zijn, deze wet volgens de Raad niet van toepassing moeten zijn. Mochten ouders toch hun geslachtsnamen willen samenvoegen en mocht een adellijke geslachtsnaam aldus worden gewijzigd, dan zou adeldom niet op deze kinderen overgaan.
Het tweede wetsvoorstel betreft wijzigingen (vereenvoudigingen) van de bepalingen voor geslachtsregistratie (Transgenderwet). Ook dit voorstel heeft implicaties voor adellijke personen. Adeldom vererft alleen langs mannelijke lijn. Voor het kunnen doorgeven van adeldom dient het geregistreerde geslacht bij de oorspronkelijke aangifte bij de burgerlijke stand leidend te blijven.
Thank you very much for writing up the year in review for us.
The original report (in Dutch) is free to download at the Council's website. The discussion of the then-bills on double surnames and gender registration is on page 5.
https://www.hogeraadvanadel.nl/bina...-2021/jaarverslag-hoge-raad-van-adel-2021.pdf
As I understand it, it was already settled law that women could not pass on their nobility to their children and that children bearing (only) their mother's surname could not inherit the nobility of their father. The novelty was the option for children to be given the surnames of both parents, which necessitated a decision about whether such children could inherit the nobility of their father.
Interesting that the Netherlands took a different decision than Belgium, where it was decided that children who carry both their paternal and maternal surnames may acquire their father's nobility if the father's surname precedes the mother's surname and the terms of creation permit.
In regard to the new Transgender Act: If I understand the report correctly, a person's originally registered gender governs the the transmission of nobility. So, trans women will be able to transmit their nobility to their children, and trans men will not. This is the essentially the same legal approach taken by the United Kingdom (although in the UK the legal gender discrimination is usually in the eligibility to inherit a hereditary dignity, rather than the ability to pass it on).