Prince Albert's Older Children Part 1: 2009 - 2023

[SirGyamfi1]

Maybe. But this is Albert's responsibility to explain that she is his wife and they couldn't be split.

As for NC actions... is not easy to forbid her attending some Monaco events... without provoking a scandal.

He can easily ban her. Others have been banned from the Principality for behaviour almost as embarrassing as Nicole’s. Plus what can Nicole do? There’s already scandal when people still think there’s issues in their marriage.

 

[fandesacs2003]

He can easily ban her. Others have been banned from the Principality for behaviour almost as embarrassing as Nicole’s. Plus what can Nicole do? There’s already scandal when people still think there’s issues in their marriage.

They banned people for kind if criminal behavior.
Here is more delicate as she is the mother of his son.
By the way, why the twins were not there? He is their half brother.
Strange situations

 

[SirGyamfi1]

They banned people for kind if criminal behavior.
Here is more delicate as she is the mother of his son.
By the way, why the twins were not there? He is their half brother.
Strange situations

The persons I was thinking of were a vulgar nouveau riche couple who behaved badly in Monaco and misbehaving in the Casino. They were banned from the casinos. Plus insulted Prince Rainier. Anyways, Nicole can be told to not come to events concerning the family. The twins are young and were probably with Charlene.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I wonder what Alexandre's status would be if Albert legitimized him. As he would be Albert's oldest legitimate son, I imagine he would take precedence over the twins.

(I've always found the idea of someone adopting their biological child odd anyway.)

And, I should reiterate that this seems very unlikely to me!



Why not? Alexandre is Albert's biological son, so maybe he would prefer him as a regent over this nephews and niece.

I'm not pushing the idea or suggesting that anyone isn't fit to serve, just thinking about roles Alexandre might have in the future.

But wouldn’t the child have to be in the succession or be legitimate to be regent? He can’t just be regent just because he’s his son. What about Jazmine? In any case, I don’t think he will have any role in the Principality nor does he need one in Monaco.

 

[Somebody]

But wouldn’t the child have to be in the succession or be legitimate to be regent? He can’t just be regent just because he’s his son. What about Jazmine? In any case, I don’t think he will have any role in the Principality nor does he need one in Monaco.

Alexandre was trying to make a distinction between him and his half-sister. Her mother was still married when she was born, so according to his definition she is illegitimate. So, even if Jazmin's parents would marry, according to the current rules, she will still not be in line to the throne - unlike Alexandre, who will be included in the line of succession if his parents were to marry.

 

[kalnel]

Alexandre was trying to make a distinction between him and his half-sister. Her mother was still married when she was born, so according to his definition she is illegitimate. So, even if Jazmin's parents would marry, according to the current rules, she will still not be in line to the throne - unlike Alexandre, who will be included in the line of succession if his parents were to marry.

Exactly right. There's something going on here -- the Point de Vue article two weeks ago, the party last week. Between his comments in the article and the flag and seal on the cake, someone is clearly positioning Alexandre next to the royal house. (Maybe no one other than his mother, but still...)

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Alexandre was trying to make a distinction between him and his half-sister. Her mother was still married when she was born, so according to his definition she is illegitimate. So, even if Jazmin's parents would marry, according to the current rules, she will still not be in line to the throne - unlike Alexandre, who will be included in the line of succession if his parents were to marry.

No, the current civil rules no longer exclude children from adulterous relationships from being legitimated.

 

[Toledo]

No, the current civil rules no longer exclude children from adulterous relationships from being legitimated.

Prince Albert has a legitimate male heir prince and a next-in-line female heir princess that in another ten years plus will be on every single royal magazine cover.

Neither Alexandre nor Jazmin, despite their ages or their father's love for them, will be counted into the succession line. Monaco is not just a state, it's a financial business and just like Albert was trained into these responsibilities he will do the same for his two young children when they get older. He can't just tell the Monaco government and investors he's turning everything over to either Jazmin or Alexandre like handing over 'dad's old car'.

 

[Somebody]

No, the current civil rules no longer exclude children from adulterous relationships from being legitimated.

Alexandre still made a distinction between the two of them; stressing that his parents were not married to someone else at the time of his birth, therefore, he considers himself to be legitimate, unlike his half-sister.

 

[Toledo]

Alexandre still made a distinction between the two of them; stressing that his parents were not married to someone else at the time of his birth, therefore, he considers himself to be legitimate, unlike his half-sister.

At the end of the day, or when Albert is gone, they will probably receive an equal inheritance amount or a Trust that provides them financial support and security. I wonder if their mothers are the ones placing the ideas to compete against the two legitimate children as if it was a made for TV holiday movie twist.

I'm old enough to remember being here in the Forum years ago when the Jazmin scandal broke out, followed by the Alexandre scandal and a third one that I assume was proven not his child. Jazmin's mother was in the news at the time bragging her daughter was the grandchild of Grace Kelly and fueling the fire Jazmin and not Caroline should be after Albert. Same claims done by Alexandre's mother later when she made public her pictures of Albert and their baby boy.

At the end of the day Albert became a responsible father of four, but he also stated that neither is next in line when he declared his younger kids and his successors followed by Caroline and her son.

A Paternity Court can't tell the state of Monaco it will decide for them who rules the principality.

 

[kalnel]

At the end of the day, or when Albert is gone, they will probably receive an equal inheritance amount or a Trust that provides them financial support and security. I wonder if their mothers are the ones placing the ideas to compete against the two legitimate children as if it was a made for TV holiday movie twist.

I'm old enough to remember being here in the Forum years ago when the Jazmin scandal broke out, followed by the Alexandre scandal and a third one that I assume was proven not his child. Jazmin's mother was in the news at the time bragging her daughter was the grandchild of Grace Kelly and fueling the fire Jazmin and not Caroline should be after Albert. Same claims done by Alexandre's mother later when she made public her pictures of Albert and their baby boy.

At the end of the day Albert became a responsible father of four, but he also stated that neither is next in line when he declared his younger kids and his successors followed by Caroline and her son.

A Paternity Court can't tell the state of Monaco it will decide for them who rules the principality.

Albert has considerable political power, unlike most other constitutional monarchs. If he felt it were advantageous to change the order of succession, legitimize one of his older children, or change the status of one of his sisters' children, I imagine he could make that happen.

Ultimately, the succession will come down to whatever is politically expedient.

Monaco has a lot of situations in play that could change how Albert views things:
-- A strange, high-level corruption scandal in progress
-- Questions and rumors about Charlene's health and future
-- A 65-year-old prince with an 8-year-old heir
-- A 66-year-old next-in-line over the age of 18
-- Casiraghi nephews who may/may not have asked permission to marry
-- A 20-year-old son who could (theoretically) be legitimized and whose recent media appearances suggest a possible interest in a princely role.

 

[Toledo]

I don't think the succession line is a problem at all even with a 65-year-old father of two eight-year-old legitimate children born within his marriage to his wife, Princess Charlene. Not to mention if something happened to Albert, his older sister Caroline will step in and help Charlene and her nephews until they are both adult and trained to assume responsibilities.

Princess Caroline is a force of nature in terms of protecting the family and her brother Albert and his wife and their children. I don't recall seen her in articles in relation to Jazmin or Alexandre like she's with all the extended Grimaldi clans of cousins, nieces, nephews, grandkids, etc.

Re: -- A 20-year-old son who could (theoretically) be legitimized and whose recent media appearances suggest a possible interest in a princely role.

The media likes the drama and when is not there, they produce it.

Prince Albert's side affairs are a family issue, like any married man with children outside the marriage. Albert and Charlene's eight-year-old children are a family issue and a government of Monaco issue. They are named since birth as his only two immediate legitimate successors and followed by Caroline's line. And I bet when they are grown both will have great relations with Alexandre and Jazmin whom themselves could potentially have families of their own by the time the twins are 18.

 

[fandesacs2003]

I have issues to get the topic of this discussion.
As regards the two older children since their existence/filiation was made public it was clearly stated that they don't have rights to the Monaco throne. This is still valid. In the slight (very slight) probability that Pcs Albert changed his mind and decided to included them, I presume that with the appropriate legal actions he could do it. Furthermore, if it happens, I'm persuaded that he will proceed to legal and constitutional acts... and not to cakes with Monaco arms to inform his people.
Basically why he would do this? By fear of lack of adult Ruler in case something happens to him? And he will chose as a ruler a 27 years girl with unclear artistic interests? Or a 18 years old post High-scholar?
If he wants someone to rule tomorrow.. or in the near future, he needs someone prepared! And none of his older kids seem to be. Despite its small size Monaco's Prince is ruling. He is like a company's Manager. Prince Albert has been preparing for decades.

If the Monaco throne becomes temporary empty .. there are many family members to fill the gap until Prince Jacques becomes adult and prepared. Princess Caroline with her 40 years experience as first Lady. But also Andrea and mainly Pierre who lives in Monaco and runs business there. The only lack actually in Monaco is an acting first Lady, not a heir.

 

[kalnel]

I don't think the succession line is a problem at all even with a 65-year-old father of two eight-year-old legitimate children born within his marriage to his wife, Princess Charlene. Not to mention if something happened to Albert, his older sister Caroline will step in and help Charlene and her nephews until they are both adult and trained to assume responsibilities.

I'm sure Caroline would be helpful, but the law makes Charlene the regent if something happens to Albert before Jacques turns 18. Given what we know of Charlene's situation, I doubt that she would be capable of -- or willing to -- assume the role of head of state. Remember, the reigning prince in Monaco is a highly political, hands-on job, not a ceremonial head of state.

Princess Caroline is a force of nature in terms of protecting the family and her brother Albert and his wife and their children. I don't recall seen her in articles in relation to Jazmin or Alexandre like she's with all the extended Grimaldi clans of cousins, nieces, nephews, grandkids, etc.

I think you're projecting into what Caroline's attitudes are. Over the years we've seen reports about a lot tension between her and Charlene, and I've never seen a report that Caroline is "protective" of her. She has no reason to favor Jacques and Gabriella over Jazmin and Alexandre -- they're all related to her in the exact same way and to the same degree.

And, she is not a young woman. If something happened to Albert tomorrow, Caroline would be 75 before Jacques turned 18. (And whoever is regent would likely have to stay on the job a few years beyond that while he finishes his education.) We have no reason to think she's not in robust good health, but taking on that role as a senior citizen is not for everyone.

Re: -- A 20-year-old son who could (theoretically) be legitimized and whose recent media appearances suggest a possible interest in a princely role.

The media likes the drama and when is not there, they produce it.

This isn't something the media has ginned up. Alexandre seemed very intelligent and focused in how he answered questions in his Point de Vue interview. He clearly considers his behavior in light of his connection to the reigning prince. (If only all young royal relatives thought that way!)

And, it wasn't the media that put the Monaco flag and crest on his birthday cake. Nor was it the media that had his sister refer to him as "my prince."

Someone is thinking about these things other than the media.

Prince Albert's side affairs are a family issue, like any married man with children outside the marriage. Albert and Charlene's eight-year-old children are a family issue and a government of Monaco issue. They are named since birth as his only two immediate legitimate successors and followed by Caroline's line. And I bet when they are grown both will have great relations with Alexandre and Jazmin whom themselves could potentially have families of their own by the time the twins are 18.

Albert didn't have "side affairs" -- as Alexandre pointed out, his parents had a relationship when neither was married. (Jazmin's story is slightly different, but Albert did not stray outside of his marriage in that affair.)

While the twins are Albert's legitimate heirs right now, that doesn't mean they always will be. When the time comes, whatever and whoever is the expedient choice for the family and their government will take over.

I'd also point out that we don't know that Caroline's children are even in the succession. As someone pointed out last week, Albert apparently commented years ago that her sons did not seek permission to marry.

 

[sophie25]

I'm sure Caroline would be helpful, but the law makes Charlene the regent if something happens to Albert before Jacques turns 18. Given what we know of Charlene's situation, I doubt that she would be capable of -- or willing to -- assume the role of head of state. Remember, the reigning prince in Monaco is a highly political, hands-on job, not a ceremonial head of state.




I think you're projecting into what Caroline's attitudes are. Over the years we've seen reports about a lot tension between her and Charlene, and I've never seen a report that Caroline is "protective" of her. She has no reason to favor Jacques and Gabriella over Jazmin and Alexandre -- they're all related to her in the exact same way and to the same degree.

And, she is not a young woman. If something happened to Albert tomorrow, Caroline would be 75 before Jacques turned 18. (And whoever is regent would likely have to stay on the job a few years beyond that while he finishes his education.) We have no reason to think she's not in robust good health, but taking on that role as a senior citizen is not for everyone.




This isn't something the media has ginned up. Alexandre seemed very intelligent and focused in how he answered questions in his Point de Vue interview. He clearly considers his behavior in light of his connection to the reigning prince. (If only all young royal relatives thought that way!)

And, it wasn't the media that put the Monaco flag and crest on his birthday cake. Nor was it the media that had his sister refer to him as "my prince."

Someone is thinking about these things other than the media.



Albert didn't have "side affairs" -- as Alexandre pointed out, his parents had a relationship when neither was married. (Jazmin's story is slightly different, but Albert did not stray outside of his marriage in that affair.)

While the twins are Albert's legitimate heirs right now, that doesn't mean they always will be. When the time comes, whatever and whoever is the expedient choice for the family and their government will take over.

I'd also point out that we don't know that Caroline's children are even in the succession. As someone pointed out last week, Albert apparently commented years ago that her sons did not seek permission to marry.

I really cannot see the twins ever being displaced as his heirs. If he were 80 years old it would be a gray area but he's only 65 and the twins have just over 9 years until they hit 18. He might be overweight but I've never read that Albert is in bad health and with the best doctors at his disposal there is every possibility he will see his two younger children reach adulthood.

 

[kalnel]

I really cannot see the twins ever being displaced as his heirs. If he were 80 years old it would be a gray area but he's only 65 and the twins have just over 9 years until they hit 18. He might be overweight but I've never read that Albert is in bad health and with the best doctors at his disposal there is every possibility he will see his two younger children reach adulthood.

I don't mean to imply that he is in bad health. I'm just pointing out that things happen and priorities change.

I have a feeling there's more than meets the eye about the buzz surrounding Alexandre. It's...interesting...

 

[tommy100]

I honestly think the only "buzz" is being created by his seemingly fame hungry mother. The line of succession is pretty clear, Albert has an heir, spare and plenty of others in the line as well. I can't see a scenario where Albert would divorce Charlene, marry Nicole to legitimise Alexandre, and then use this to displace Jacques and Gabriella. Even if Albert and Charlene were to split I really don't see Jacques being displaced.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Albert has an heir, spare and plenty of others in the line as well.

The legal line of succession is quite short because, first, article 24 of the house law excludes those who have married without receiving the sovereign's formal permission and their descendants (refer to the earlier links in this thread), and second, even for those who married with permission, article 10 of the constitution of the principality restricts the line to the monarch, his siblings and their legitimate descendants.

 

[kalnel]

I honestly think the only "buzz" is being created by his seemingly fame hungry mother. The line of succession is pretty clear, Albert has an heir, spare and plenty of others in the line as well. I can't see a scenario where Albert would divorce Charlene, marry Nicole to legitimise Alexandre, and then use this to displace Jacques and Gabriella. Even if Albert and Charlene were to split I really don't see Jacques being displaced.

Is it only Alexandre's mother? This whole Rock Files scandal is destabilizing some of the top government and palace officials who are very close to Albert. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that she's the only person who would gain by promoting Alexandre right now.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

The legal line of succession is quite short because, first, article 24 of the house law excludes those who have married without receiving the sovereign's formal permission and their descendants (refer to the earlier links in this thread), and second, even for those who married with permission, article 10 of the constitution of the principality restricts the line to the monarch, his siblings and their legitimate descendants.

The line of succession has 17 people, of which 9 are over the age of 18, and 7 are under the age of 40. Of those 9, most, if not all, have strong ties to Monaco, having been born and/or raised in the Principality. Many still reside and work in the Principality. I doubt very much Prince Albert and the courtiers have not given education to the children of Princess Caroline (i.e. Andrea, Pierre and Charlotte) over the past 20-25 years, especially before Charlene and the children were in the picture. At one stage, it looked very much that Princess Caroline was going to be Princess Regent, with her eldest son as Hereditary Prince.

This line of succession is far more healthy than what Sweden had when King Carl Gustav ascended the throne.

Whatever Alexandre's mother is trying to spout is her own opinions - it look very very very unlikely that her son would have bestowed a Princely title (he can't) let alone a place in the line of succession (again, he can't). Sounds like delusions of grandeur than reality

 

[victor1319]

So I hope this is and stays an "academical" discussion about a topic, that will never realize, but why would Princess Charlène not be a good ruler?

There have been Princes of Monaco, which ruled over the Principality via radio from a ship in Oceans far away...

The Princess does not have to be a "hands on" ruler like Prince Albert, the workhorse!

She can implement a Chancellor into the power structure, who does the daily business under her loose supervision. And there is a constitution! If Charlène does not allow her Chancellor to change this constitution, then there would be no problem! This can be fixed into Albert's testament, I would mean.

 

[kalnel]

So I hope this is and stays an "academical" discussion about a topic, that will never realize, but why would Princess Charlène not be a good ruler?

There have been Princes of Monaco, which ruled over the Principality via radio from a ship in Oceans far away...

The Princess does not have to be a "hands on" ruler like Prince Albert, the workhorse!

She can implement a Chancellor into the power structure, who does the daily business under her loose supervision. And there is a constitution! If Charlène does not allow her Chancellor to change this constitution, then there would be no problem! This can be fixed into Albert's testament, I would mean.

When Charlene returned to Monaco in late 2021 after her extended stay in South Africa, Albert said that she had to seek treatment away from the principality because she was "overwhelmed and couldn't face official duties, life in general, or even family life."

If she's that fragile, it doesn't suggest she would be capable of taking on an even bigger role.

As far as changing the power structure to use a chancellor, why would the Grimaldis want that? They have a lot of political power and control (unlike most of their fellow royals), and they'd be giving that all up by empowering a chancellor. And they'd never get it back.

Whether it is Caroline, one of her children, or Alexandre (should the need arise), the family will protect its power.

 

[fandesacs2003]

Charlene's role as Regent (in case something happens ) has been properly raised here. We all know that she is now not I her best situation... but we are not talking about tomorrow morning.
Unless thinks became so bad that she is unable to remember her name or to read a normal document...(in English of course) Charlene has a heir if her blood, she will do everything she can to protect his rights. It happened often in history when widowed Queens managed by all means to fill the gap before their baby boy heir comes in majority to be the Ruler.
Do you think that she will kindy step behind and welcome Alexander in her son's Throne?
And we all forget Monaco people. They might be adore Charlene (I don't really know) but they watch the wedding, they followed the twins since day 0.. Do you think that they will accept such a change? For them Alexander or Jasmin are not in the lawful position of being a heir.
How this feeling could be overcome?

And at the end of the day, out of Nicole Coste, who else would want to have Alexander as heir? Whichever could be his personal value ?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The line of succession has 17 people, of which 9 are over the age of 18, and 7 are under the age of 40.

Are you saying that the poster who posted about Prince Albert II's interview was misquoting him? If so, where is the Sovereign Decision for those who married after 2015?

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

Are you saying that the poster who posted about Prince Albert II's interview was misquoting him? If so, where is the Sovereign Decision for those who married after 2015?

Not at all. I'm illustrating that the Monégasque line of succession is not short and there are ample number of successors. It can be assumed that Andrea, Pierre, Charlotte and Louis sought and received permission from their uncle to marry - there is no indication to the contrary, especially as all married in Monaco

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Not at all. I'm illustrating that the Monégasque line of succession is not short and there are ample number of successors.

But if Albert II was paraphrased correctly as saying that his nephews did not ask for his permission to marry (meaning that under article 24 of the house law they, and their descendants, are out of the Monégasque line of succession), then who makes up the ample number of successors?

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

But if Albert II was quoted correctly as saying that his nephews did not ask for his permission to marry (meaning that under article 24 of the house law they, and their descendants, are out of the Monégasque line of succession), then who makes up the ample number of successors?

I cannot find any articles online stating that. Do you have a source? I cannot find any official statement from the Palace stating that permission was not sought and thus any of his nephews are excluded from the line of succession. An interview doesn't constitute an official statement

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I cannot find any articles online stating that. Do you have a source?

A poster here cited a book for which the prince was interviewed for his 60th birthday.

Albert said in the book about him that his nephews did not ask him is they could marry, He said they asked him advices not else,

Yes, it is the last book about the prince Albert for his 60th anniversary

I haven't gotten around to obtaining a copy of the book for myself, and melina has sadly passed away, but the 2015 house law requires the permission to be given in the form of Sovereign Decision, and I have searched the Monegasque official gazette and database of legislation without finding a Sovereign Decision for the marriages that occurred since 2015.

And my apologies, I should have said paraphrased rather than quoted.

I cannot find any official statement from the Palace stating that permission was not sought and thus any of his nephews are excluded from the line of succession. An interview doesn't constitute an official statement

But have you found any statement from the Palace, official or otherwise, stating that permission was sought and granted and thus his nephews are in the line of succession?

 

[Granada]

I honestly can't see ANY scenario in which Prince Jacques, and then Princess Gabriella would ever be displaced as the principal heirs.

None. Ever.

I'm not sure why Alexandre is giving interviews about not considering himself to be 'illegitimate' either. It makes ZERO sense to me. As that 'status' has no bearing *really* in today's world.

And unfortunately in dynastic terms, he IS. As his sister Jazmin. Who interestingly enough posted on Instagram for Alexandre's Birthday, last week...."My PRINCE turns 20 today". Sheesh.

BUT, Alexandre IS a kid, so I will cut him lots of slack. Hopefully, he grows out of it.

Prince Jacques is heir, then Princess Gabriella. If anything were to tragically happen to Albert, I could see Caroline DEFINITELY stepping up to manage, should Charlene not be able to. No way Jazmin or Alexandre gets promoted over them.

That being said, I still find his mother Nicole to be the ultimate "mean girl" to Charlene. Jealous, bitter and not afraid to lash out at Charlene either. Publicly. Who seems to bear the brunt of Nicole's animosity. Not Albert.
I'm sure whether subconsciously or not, Alexandre has picked up on that too.

 

[hereditarytitles]

A poster here cited a book for which the prince was interviewed for his 60th birthday.

haven't gotten around to obtaining a copy of the book for myself, and melina has sadly passed away, but the 2015 house law requires the permission to be given in the form of Sovereign Decision, and I have searched the Monegasque official gazette and database of legislation without finding a Sovereign Decision for the marriages that occurred since 2015.

And my apologies, I should have said paraphrased rather than quoted.




But have you found any statement from the Palace, official or otherwise, stating that permission was sought and granted and thus his nephews are in the line of succession?

I just found an english version of the Monaco Constitution, amended in 2002. Nowhere it is mentioned that the family members have to ask for permission to marry, and if not would lose their place in the line of succession. I think if that was the case it should be written down in the Constitution.
The wikipedia line of succession shows what most of us believe is the right order , unless we cannot trust wikipedia.
What is "The House Law" of Monaco, I just don't understand the difference between House Law and the Constitution. Is this "House Law" published somewhere ?
Is there such a law with other Royals (I know it is in GB), that would be interesting to know.

https://en.gouv.mc/Gouvernement-et-Institutions/Les-Institutions/La-Constitution-de-la-Principaute
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_Monegasque_throne