Prince Gustav, Princess Carina of Berleburg and Family, Current Events 3, June 2022 -

[Duke of Marmalade]

Present-day German law does not distinguish between legal children in the inheritance of their parent's properties or titles (the latter are part of the surname), irrespective of the circumstances of their conception, birth or adoption.

The same applies to gender. If the rumor or speculation that Gustav and Carina have ensured the child will be a boy is true, then it is purely motivated by their own thinking, as there is no legal reason or need to do so.

Any legally acknowledged child of Gustav will be entitled to carry his surname, including the Prinz/Prinzessin title, and to succeed to a share of his properties (he may disinherit any of his children, but they would retain the right to claim a compulsory share from Gustav's designated heir).

Tilia C. provided a good short summary:

Thanks and interesting. Their case is very complicated, I'll give them that.

Muhler So if they want a sibling, they will have to produce on within the next couple of years.
Would be a great support for each other, especially if the children basically have to take over Berleburg when they are in their 20s.

Thanks Muhler. I personally find it difficult, when I was born my father was 40 and at that time this was considered 'old' (I am the youngest of 3). He passed when I was 38, my mother shortly afterwards, and only my siblings have the true memory of a vibrant, youngish father. I only remember him settled and in later years, ailing. But that's life and had no impact of loving/being loved by parents, certainly not in my case.
It's only when I look around today, I really do feel sorry for many children of friends/colleagues, very often only children without siblings, being helicoptered and pressured by parents over 40 or even 50+, focussed on work and mobile phones with total lack of the energy a child deserves.
Please forgive me for explaining in a very personal way why I have mixed feelings about this. But as I said, I wish them all the best, they will know what they are doing for sure.

 

[Muhler]

Thanks and interesting. Their case is very complicated, I'll give them that.



Thanks Muhler. I personally find it difficult, when I was born my father was 40 and at that time this was considered 'old' (I am the youngest of 3). He passed when I was 38, my mother shortly afterwards, and only my siblings have the true memory of a vibrant, youngish father. I only remember him settled and in later years, ailing. But that's life and had no impact of loving/being loved by parents, certainly not in my case.
It's only when I look around today, I really do feel sorry for many children of friends/colleagues, very often only children without siblings, being helicoptered and pressured by parents over 40 or even 50+, focussed on work and mobile phones with total lack of the energy a child deserves.
Please forgive me for explaining in a very personal way why I have mixed feelings about this. But as I said, I wish them all the best, they will know what they are doing for sure.

A very valid point.
And again, you are right.

And that leads me remark on how inconsiderate this legal dispute was.
Not only did it drag on forever, but it actively prevented them from getting married, lest it should weaken their case, but also from having children, again lest it should weaken their case.
The relative was old when he filed this lawsuits after the death of Prince Richard, so he had no biological clock ticking. While Gustav and Carina had to wait until it was no longer possible for them to have children the natural way - at least not safely.
Ludwig Ferdinand almost succeeded, so oder so. And don't tell me that wasn't a deliberate tactic.

So not only did Gustav and Carina have a peculiar will to deal with, but also a very calculating lawsuit. Preventing them from marrying (a minor thing in this day and age but still) but also have children. Or at the very least making a marriage and having children a big legal risk.

The result being that they went from been pretty certain they would live to see at least their first grandchild, had they married right after the death of Prince Richard, to that now being considerably less certain.

So from a purely emotional point of view, Ludwig Ferdinand is a person, whose obituary I would read with a more than fair amount of delight, were I Gustav and Carina.

 

[Somebody]

A very valid point.
And again, you are right.

And that leads me remark on how inconsiderate this legal dispute was.
Not only did it drag on forever, but it actively prevented them from getting married, lest it should weaken their case, but also from having children, again lest it should weaken their case.
The relative was old when he filed this lawsuits after the death of Prince Richard, so he had no biological clock ticking. While Gustav and Carina had to wait until it was no longer possible for them to have children the natural way - at least not safely.
Ludwig Ferdinand almost succeeded, so oder so. And don't tell me that wasn't a deliberate tactic.

So not only did Gustav and Carina have a peculiar will to deal with, but also a very calculating lawsuit. Preventing them from marrying (a minor thing in this day and age but still) but also have children. Or at the very least making a marriage and having children a big legal risk.

The result being that they went from been pretty certain they would live to see at least their first grandchild, had they married right after the death of Prince Richard, to that now being considerably less certain.

So from a purely emotional point of view, Ludwig Ferdinand is a person, whose obituary I would read with a more than fair amount of delight, were I Gustav and Carina.

Gustav's father only died 6 years ago. It's not that they had a much better chance of a natural pregnancy when they were in their late 40s - and whether those years are going to make difference in meeting a grandchild is to be seen; in both cases the child runs the risk of being without parents at a relatively young age (which is even worse if you're an only child).

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Another question from somebody who is not familiar with surrogate - I understand in this case the sex of the heir baby is irrelevant but there are reports that it will be a boy.
I guess it is possible to manipulate the sex when 'preparing' the surrogate by chosing the right sperm beforehand? Sorry to get so biological.
There were rumors that something similar was done in Japan (not by surrogate but artificial procedure) to get the requested male heir to the throne.
Thanks beforehand to the experts!

 

[Izzie]

Good Grief...some of these comments! The poor child is already an orphan and has not even been born yet!! So, 50s is too old to become a parent but being in ones 80s is not too old to be monarch. Interesting age standards.

Since the news came out all I've seen is judging, criticism, the potential for being orphaned, calls of illegality, lying and underhanded tactics! I truly hope that none of those making those comments or any one of their family members ever consider creating a family via surrogacy. They may run the risk of being ex-communicated!

All I wish is for this child to be born safe and healthy. Many blessings to Gustav and Carina as they become a family of 3. May they enjoy many happy years as parents and as the family they waited so long to become. May this child bring the entire family much joy, happiness and love! And blessing to the many individuals that took part in making this dream come to fruition, especially the individual that was the vessel to bring this baby into the world. Truly, the aforementioned in this paragraph is what is really important.

 

[Muhler]

I think that is a very free interpretation of the concerns raised!

 

[Somebody]

Another question from somebody who is not familiar with surrogate - I understand in this case the sex of the heir baby is irrelevant but there are reports that it will be a boy.
I guess it is possible to manipulate the sex when 'preparing' the surrogate by chosing the right sperm beforehand? Sorry to get so biological.
There were rumors that something similar was done in Japan (not by surrogate but artificial procedure) to get the requested male heir to the throne.
Thanks beforehand to the experts!

I wouldn't consider myself an expert but I'd say -if they want to be sure they'll have a heir, i.e., a boy, the sex would be determined after the egg has been fertilized (most likely more than 1 egg was fertilized - so there would be multiple options to choose from).

 

[Izzie]

I think that is a very free interpretation of the concerns raised!

I don't know how else to interpret the negative connotation of the majority of the comments I've seen. It is only my opinion which I am sure will be either pounced on or ignored which is fine. It is my 2 cents on the subject (and probably worth much less than that). I will offer no further comment on the matter except to wish them all well.

When those of use who were unable to have children see the types of reaction to this news as have been expressed in this thread it hits a little harder.

But please continue to already doom this child before it has even come into the world.

I'm out.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

-if they want to be sure they'll have a heir, i.e., a boy

It is probable that Gustav personally wishes his heir to be a son (as that seems to be the attitude of the majority of upper-class men in Germany and elsewhere), but their child does not need to be a boy in order to be an heir.

 

[Muhler]

As you wish, I shall continue my doom and gloom.
At present the average life expectancy in Germany is 80.88 years. Men typically less than that.
Some will of course live considerably longer, others wont.

Gustav and Carina are both 55.

They will be around 70, when their (hopefully first) child will get into the teens in earnest.
Not saying that all teens are impossible and rebellious, far from it in fact, but it is a challenging time for both child and parents. It may not be physically challenging but you worry about your teen - a lot!
They will be around 73 when their child turns 18. But becoming an adult is not the same as being able to fly. - Not least in regards to taking over a huge estate.
Carina and Gustav will be around 80, their statistical expiry date, at the time their child may very likely still be at university.

There are many who is in fine shape when in their 80s, many are not though.

I can follow Duke of Marmalade, because I was an accident and my parents got me pretty late. - I was at times a handfull as well, no doubt!
My mother died when I was 24, my dad when I was 34.
My dad lived long enough to see our son, but never our daughter.

- So I think the concerns expressed are valid and by no means out of malice or with any possible intention of spiting those who cannot or have problems having children.

 

[Somebody]

It is probable that Gustav personally wishes his heir to be a son (as that seems to be the attitude of the majority of upper-class men in Germany and elsewhere), but their child does not need to be a boy in order to be an heir.

Not technically to inherit but for the headship of the family to be passed on, I'd argue that he needs a son.

 

[Heavs]

Late to commenting but not to reading:

My first boyfriend's parents were professors in (her) late 40s (him) early 50s and he was their first longed for child. The circumstances were different but people in their 50s are very able to raise kids. If that weren't the case then millions of grandparents would be under investigation from child neglect since many all over the world look after them at least as much as their parents do. Not saying it's ideal but it's not that unusual either.

Surrogacy is extremely imperfect but it is legal in many places and as long as all physical and mental health steps are taken for ALL parents all every juncture and nothing is forced then it isn't anyone's business unless there's any "of the body" requirements for titles or inheritance such as the Baths have spoken out against but don't seem to matter here.

I was surprised when I heard the news because I thought if they wanted kids then they'd have done so long ago and either fought the will regardless or given them her name and said "see we really aren't married".

ETA I'm not saying "everyone should have babies via surrogate in their 50s" but with modern health care and hopefully eating well then the parents could expect to live at least another 30 years. Prince Albert ws 56 when his twins were born and whilst I wouldn't use him as a role model it seems he is a reasonably involved parent and few question if he should be their parent.

 

[Somebody]

I don't know how else to interpret the negative connotation of the majority of the comments I've seen. It is only my opinion which I am sure will be either pounced on or ignored which is fine. It is my 2 cents on the subject (and probably worth much less than that). I will offer no further comment on the matter except to wish them all well.

When those of use who were unable to have children see the types of reaction to this news as have been expressed in this thread it hits a little harder.

But please continue to already doom this child before it has even come into the world.

I'm out.

I personally was a bit surprised about the very positive responses: almost everyone seemed very happy for the couple. It took quite a while before anyone considered the child in this whole story: who hopefully will have a happy life. Being very much wanted and part of a loving family is a good start: but needing to fulfill your parents' dreams and probably needing to take care of your aging parents from an early age also brings a burden with it that may be acknowledged.

In addition, of course, some were interested in how the couple would do this legally - especially, since their own statement mentioned that (!). That doesn't necessarily mean they didn't rejoice with Gustav and Carina - whom many wish nothing but the best given the difficulties they encountered over the years.

And not everyone who cannot have children will respond the same to this news: some might understand their desire but still have serious concerns about the way this couple went about fulfilling their dream.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Thanks for your answers!

 

[Denville]

r.

Surrogacy is extremely imperfect but it is legal in many places and as long as all physical and mental health steps are taken for ALL parents all every juncture and nothing is forced then it isn't anyone's business unless there's any "of the body" requirements for titles or inheritance such as the Baths have spoken out against but don't seem to matter here.

But it is NOT legal in Germany is it?

 

[Izzie]

So, age is an issue for this case but not for others? If 55 is too old to have a child...is it not then too old to let's say still be an heir waiting in the wings until who knows when? How possibly will they be able to do their duty? If there is concern about having a 20 something in their 80s is it not then a concern about having a monarch in heir 80s? Who will take care of them then? It seems to be like one is a serious concern and the other is considered ageism and blasphemy to even consider. So 55 is too old to become a parents. But just fine to still be waiting to take the reins as we say.

I love the double standard when it suits people.

Happiness to the couple and their new addition.

And now I'm out.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I must admit I have trouble seeing the comparison between becoming a parent versus continuing to serve as a head of state, but as this is not the place to discuss it, please feel free to continue in another thread.

Since the news came out all I've seen is judging, criticism, the potential for being orphaned, calls of illegality, lying and underhanded tactics! I truly hope that none of those making those comments or any one of their family members ever consider creating a family via surrogacy. They may run the risk of being ex-communicated!

It is a matter of public record that surrogacy is illegal in Germany: Links to information on this area of German law are posted earlier in this thread.

Regardless of how one personally considers the ethics of surrogacy, the fact that it is illegal in Germany and illegal or restricted in various other countries means it should not come as a surprise that criticism exists. Some royal watchers may also recall that some years ago the crown princess of Norway was criticized for assisting friends of hers with retrieving their child from an overseas surrogate mother.

Nevertheless, I personally have seen virtually no criticism of Gustav or Carina. The vast majority of the criticism I have seen in discussions of this family here or elsewhere has been aimed at Gustav's grandfather Gustav Albrecht, and much of that criticism is based on already debunked rumors about the contents of his will.

 

[maria-olivia]

It is their own Choice . They certainly had difficult years for having a child by their own.
I am so happy for them.

 

[Sancia]

When those of use who were unable to have children see the types of reaction to this news as have been expressed in this thread it hits a little harder.

I am struggling with unability to have children and I am 100% against surrogacy. And I have been expecting a pregnancy for more than ten years. That being said, I agree that comments on old parents are a little harsh even for me. If we have a child someday, my husband will be a nearly-50-years-old father, and we would rather have had children when he was younger.

 

[rominet09]

So happy for them after having had to wait such a long time to be married.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I was surprised when I heard the news because I thought if they wanted kids then they'd have done so long ago and either fought the will regardless or given them her name and said "see we really aren't married".

It is only incidentally related to your point, but just for clarification: The will's stipulations did not disinherit possible heirs for having children out of wedlock with a non-noble partner (though extramarital children themselves were excluded), only for wedding a non-noble spouse.

Though Ludwig-Ferdinand would certainly have added the existence of any premarital children into his argument that the couple was circumventing the will by living in the manner of a married couple without formalizing their status. (The courts, of course, rejected his argument and agreed with Gustav that Gustav had conformed to all the conditions stipulated in the will.)

Not technically to inherit but for the headship of the family to be passed on, I'd argue that he needs a son.

In what sense?

I guess it is possible to manipulate the sex when 'preparing' the surrogate by chosing the right sperm beforehand? Sorry to get so biological.

It is illegal in Germany (as is surrogacy), but there are certainly countries where it is legal.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

ETA I'm not saying "everyone should have babies via surrogate in their 50s" but with modern health care and hopefully eating well then the parents could expect to live at least another 30 years. Prince Albert ws 56 when his twins were born and whilst I wouldn't use him as a role model it seems he is a reasonably involved parent and few question if he should be their parent.

Albert is a good example, but his case is different as there is a sibling and the mother is much younger.
The same at Thurn & Taxis, Prince Albert was seven years old when his father died, who was in desperate need of a heir. But his mother Gloria was much younger, still representing the House to this very day.

 

[stellam]

I tried for 10 years to fall pregnant and eventually, at the age of 37 I fell pregnant with the help of fertility. I had a few nay-sayers in my face that said I was too old but it didn't bother me. I am sure Gustav and Carina must be so thrilled that they are finally going to be parents and their age is the furthest thing from their minds. Good luck to them and I hope it all goes well with the pregnancy.

 

[Blog Real]

Prince Gustav and Princess Carina have welcomed a baby boy.
The baby was born through a surrogate mother.
The baby was born in the United States. Prince Gustav and Princess Carina attended the birth.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cs5tVZVgWYs/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

The baby already has a name, confirmed by a spokesperson for Prince Gustav and Princess Carina to Billed-Bladet:

"A spokesperson for Prince Gustav zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and Princess Carina zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg confirms that the princely couple have had a son named Gustav Albrecht, which they are very happy about and are very grateful for. Everyone is doing well. After their return to Bad Berleburg, we would like to share further information".

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...stav-har-faaet-en-lille-soen-her-er-hans-navn

 

[Biri]

Was he born today?

Congratulations to parents, surrogate mother and Princess Benedikte! (and to Carina's parents too, if they are still alive).

 

[muriel]

Prince Gustav and Princess Carina have welcomed a baby boy.
The baby was born through a surrogate mother.
The baby was born in the United States. Prince Gustav and Princess Carina attended the birth.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cs5tVZVgWYs/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Many congratulations to the couple.

 

[iceflower]

Was he born today?

No, he was born on May 26. In the message released by the Danish court it says:

"On Friday 26 May 2023, Their Highnesses Prince Gustav zu-Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and Princess Carina zu-Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg became the parents of a son.

The newborn prince was born in the United States with the help of a surrogate mother. Both Prince Gustav and Princess Carina were present during the birth.

Prince Gustav is the son of Her Royal Highness Princess Benedikte and Prince Richard, and the little prince is Princess Benedikte's fifth grandchild".


** kongehuset: D.H. Prins Gustav og Prinsesse Carina har fået en søn **

 

[suztav]

So happy for this family. Many blessings for a happy life together with their son.

 

[maria-olivia]

Gustav Albrecht will be loved , Prince or not , Heir or not !

 

[An Ard Ri]

Congratulations to Prince Gustav and Princess Carina with their Happy News