Prince Louis Engaged to Scarlett-Lauren Sirgue: Apr '21, Break Off Engagement Feb '22

[Denville]

Don't know but even if she is protestant would not expect him to marry in a protestant Ceremony. Don't think his parents would be to happy in that case.

Well they cant marry in a Catholic ceremony.....

 

[Somebody]

Many congratulations to the couple!

And, I have to say, that was actually a pretty classy statement from Tessy. You never quite know what you're going to get with her and even in the best of divorces the engagement and remarriage of ex-spouses can be a tricky topic and situation but the statement was well done.

I would have preferred her to leave Gabriel (first time she calls him 'Gabe'?) and Noah out of it. Why would she need to speak for her children when the GD court already did so... As if they are more her children than his.

Given that she got engaged several months ago, she could hardly protest Louis doing the same.

I wonder what Scarlett-Lauren's title will be; I see various options:
- Countess Scarlett-Lauren de Nassau (this is what she would be entitled to)
- Princess Scarlett-Lauren de Nassau (if Henri would want to elevate her to the rank of princess; to have the same rank as her step-sons)
- Princess Scarlett-Lauren of Luxembourg (if Henri would want to elevate her to the same rank and style as her future husband)

Edit: In the short biography of the future bride, Louis is referred to as 'Louis de Nassau', so that might be a hint.

 

[Somebody]

Probably they will have a civil ceremony somewhere and that's it if his first marriage hasn't been annulled.

He can follow his uncle's example: a civil ceremony in the hometown of his bride.

 

[Marengo]

What is her hometown? Paris? Lots of options there.

I remember the wedding of his uncle in Versailles, but the Weiller family was of course very wealthy.

As for the title of the bride I can't see why it would be any different from the one that was used by Tessy, so Princess de Luxembourg. The only comtesse de Nassau is the 2nd wife of Prince Jean IIRC?

Edit: it seems the home town of Scarlett-Lauren would be the wonderful city of Bordeaux. And for the GDss not very far from Biarritz . As a sidenote: Mme Sirgue seeems to be a 2nd cousin of the French extreme-right leader Marine Le Pen. Marine's maternal grandmother Jeanette Sirgue was a sister of Scarlett's paternal grandfather Fernand Sirgue. Hopefully for the Lux. royal family the Sirgue- family did not keep in touch.

 

[Prisma]

[...]

I wonder what Scarlett-Lauren's title will be; I see various options:
- Countess Scarlett-Lauren de Nassau (this is what she would be entitled to)
- Princess Scarlett-Lauren de Nassau (if Henri would want to elevate her to the rank of princess; to have the same rank as her step-sons)
- Princess Scarlett-Lauren of Luxembourg (if Henri would want to elevate her to the same rank and style as her future husband)

Wouldn't she be HRH Princess Scarlett-Lauren of Luxembourg, Princess de Nassau automatically since this is (I assume) an approved marriage? GD Henri wouldn't need to elevate her by decree or anything.

 

[Somebody]

What is her hometown? Paris? Lots of options there.

I remember the wedding of his uncle in Versailles, but the Weiller family was of course very wealthy.

As for the title of the bride I can't see why it would be any different from the one that was used by Tessy, so Princess de Luxembourg. The only comtesse de Nassau is the 2nd wife of Prince Jean IIRC?

I was thinking about his divorced uncle (who is also no longer in the line of succession); he married his second wife in Roermond.

 

[Somebody]

Wouldn't she be HRH Princess Scarlett-Lauren of Luxembourg automatically since this is (I assume) an approved marriage? GD Henri wouldn't need to elevate her by decree or anything.

I am not sure whether this marriage can be approved as Louis is no longer in line of succession. So 'approval' doesn't have much meaning in that case, I would think.

As for the title of the bride I can't see why it would be any different from the one that was used by Tessy, so Princess de Luxembourg. The only comtesse de Nassau is the 2nd wife of Prince Jean IIRC?

Tessy only got her title several years after marriage... And they had a lot of trouble because of it. So, I am not completely sure that they will make a second bride of a prince who is not in line to the throne (immediately) princess of Luxembourg.

And yes, Diane is currently the only 'comtesse de Nassau' and is in exactly the same position as Scarlett-Lauren will be in.

 

[Marengo]

That was the one that I was thinking of too. The daughter of a French general (de Guerre - what's in a name?) and the late countess Wolff-Metternich zur Gracht of Hillenraad castle. But I believe she was 'only' elevated to a countess and has not been made a princess. Though in magazines I see them sometimes referred to as 'Prince et Princesse Jean de Luxembourg'.

I believe to have read at the time that the divorce and 2nd wedding of prince Jean caused some problems as some in the family had difficulties stomaching the concept of a divorce. By now we are 12 years further so perhaps that has changed things. Rightly or wrongly not making Scarlett a Princess would also send a strong signal of disaprovement which I am not quite sure the family wants to do at the moment. But we will see how things go. I am sure it will not make much of a difference to the happy couple of course.

The photos with the white background look slightly off to me - as if the people were photoshopped into one composition. Perhaps due to COVID restrictions the four were not able to meet and pose together? I do not know the French regulations but here in Belgium foreign travel is not allowed.

 

[Prisma]

Family Bylaws Concerning the House Law of the House of Luxembourg-Nassau | Luxarazzi
Grand Ducal Decree of 18 June 2012

Name and title of Members of the Grand Ducal House and the Grand Ducal Family

Subject to the following, in paragraph 4 defined provisions, the members of the Grand Ducal House and the Grand Ducal Family, in all their official and private functions which may concern them, bear

1) the first grade marital descendants of the head of the house as well as those of the member of the house called upon to succeed to the throne according to the laws of primogeniture and their wives by marriage according to the rules of the house, have the style Royal Highness, their first name and the family name “zu Nassau” (“de Nassau”) as well as the title Prince or Princess of Luxembourg, etc. etc.

[...]

3) those who conducted a marriage without the consent of the head of the house, the family name “zu Nassau” (“de Nassau”) as well as their previous title. The wives and legitimate offspring of this marriage bear their first name and the family name “zu Nassau” (“de Nassau”) as well as the title Count or Countess of Nassau.

The use or the conferral of a style or title in the individual case cannot deduce either rights from the membership of the house or family or consent to the marriage.

In case of a legal separation, a divorce or remarriage after death, the wives lose the style and title conferred upon them.

Hmm... confusing

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Thank you, Prisma.

Here is a link to the untranslated family bylaws for readers who are able to read German.

Décret grand-ducal du 18 juin 2012 portant coordination du Statut de famille du 5 mai 1907. - Legilux

But I believe she was 'only' elevated to a countess and has not been made a princess. Though in magazines I see them sometimes referred to as 'Prince et Princesse Jean de Luxembourg'.

The Grand-Ducal Court has exclusively referred to her as Mrs. Diane de Guerre and, since 2012, Countess Diane of Nassau; refer for instance to the guestlist released for the funeral of Grand Duke Jean in 2019. Nonetheless, she apparently does refer to herself as a Princess of Luxembourg.

I am not sure whether this marriage can be approved as Louis is no longer in line of succession. So 'approval' doesn't have much meaning in that case, I would think.

[...]

And yes, Diane is currently the only 'comtesse de Nassau' and is in exactly the same position as Scarlett-Lauren will be in.

Is anyone able to confirm which title, if any, was recognized for Kathryn Mechie, the wife of Prince Constantin of Nassau, who likewise was not in the line of succession when he married? It appears she still uses her maiden name.

Edit: In the short biography of the future bride, Louis is referred to as 'Louis de Nassau', so that might be a hint.

I believe he is referred to as "Louis de Nassau" in that section of the biography because it is discussing his employment in the Sirgue family law firm, where Louis de Nassau is the name he uses professionally.

By the terms of the family bylaws, he will retain his titles of Prince of Luxembourg, etc. etc. regardless of whether his marriage is approved.

What is her hometown? Paris? Lots of options there.

The biography released by the grand-ducal court (link in Somebody's message above; originally posted by Blog Real) says that she was raised in Cap Ferret, Bordeaux, London, Switzerland, and Paris.

 

[Mirabel]

Well they cant marry in a Catholic ceremony.....

If he gets an annulment of his first marriage, I believe he can.

 

[Biri]

If he gets an annulment of his first marriage, I believe he can.

But I don't see on what basis.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Immaturity. It wouldn't be the first time it was used to justify an annulment.

 

[Somebody]

Is anyone able to confirm which title, if any, was recognized for Kathryn Mechie, the wife of Prince Constantin of Nassau, who likewise was not in the line of succession when he married? It appears she still uses her maiden name.

Good question. My guess would be that she officially is 'Countess Kathryn de Nassau' - but maybe she decided to continue using her maiden name at least professionally? She might want to use 'de Nassau' in private as her son is also 'de Nassau'.

I believe he is referred to as "Louis de Nassau" in that section of the biography because it is discussing his employment in the Sirgue family law firm, where Louis de Nassau is the name he uses professionally.

By the terms of the family bylaws, he will retain his titles of Prince of Luxembourg, etc. etc. regardless of whether his marriage is approved./QUOTE]

Yes, of course, it won't change Louis' status as prince (as it didn't upon relinquishing his rights or his marriage with Tessy). I wat thinking that this might be an indication that Scarlett-Lauren would probably also be known as 'S-L de Nassau' after marriage; so might not be as interested in becoming 'princess of Luxembourg' - unlike Tessy who built her whole brand about being 'princess of Luxembourg'. Going forward as the 'family de Nassau' would seem consistent with their current profile.

 

[Heavs]

I would have preferred her to leave Gabriel (first time she calls him 'Gabe'?) and Noah out of it. Why would she need to speak for her children when the GD court already did so... As if they are more her children than his.

Given that she got engaged several months ago, she could hardly protest Louis doing the same.

I think in a situation like this it's fine if both sides mention that the children. I don't think she was mentioning that they're more hers than his in this particular post. They seem to be physically with her at the moment which might also be why she included them. It's not like she added anything potentially cringy like her unborn child is happy about her brothers' new step mother.

Immaturity. It wouldn't be the first time it was used to justify an annulment.

Whilst they were young 20 is still an adult and the marriage lasted a decade. I've no doubt there was immaturity at first but that would definitely go into "excuses" territory.

Tessy didn't get Princess until 6 years into their marriage after she had proved herself because they were young and the situation with Gabriel. S-L doesn't have the same issues against her.

I see her potentially becoming a Princess after marriage. I don't think we can tell anything about her intentions or his from Louis not using his titles officially at work, many royals who work do the same but use their titles outside work. The Cour still definitely uses them for him and his sons and his parents seem to have made it clear they approve.

But we'll see.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

If he gets an annulment of his first marriage, I believe he can.

How long does it take to get an annulment in the Roman Catholic church?

 

[Princess Luna]

Congratulations to Louis and Scarlett?

 

[principessa]

I wish them all the best!

 

[Sancia]

I wish all the best to Louis and Scarlett-Lauren! I hope the couple will be happy and she will be able to cope with her future family-in-law.

As for a potential declaration of nullity for his marriage with Tessy, there are many misconceptions on the subject. The core principle of the whole procedure is to determine whether the marriage was null and void ab initio, at its inception. Therefore, the inquiry is long, often painful for the parties as they have to give a testimony on intimate matters. Canonical judges involved in the matters do all agree on the fact seemingly happy marriages can actually be void and null. Declaration of nullity is not about being pleasant with the mighty and the wealthy faithfuls, although it is true that wealthy and upper-class catholics are more resorting to the process. Declaration of nullity is by no way a privilege conceded to happy-fews but a complex way and a sensible matter.

 

[Mirabel]

Immaturity. It wouldn't be the first time it was used to justify an annulment.

Yes.
My cousin got an annulment on those grounds (after 24 years and three kids!)
So I know it can be done, you just need a good witness to make your case.

It didn't take that long either.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

WHAT?! 24 years of marriage and three kids?

No wonder people have stopped taking the Church's views on the sanctity of marriage seriously.

 

[Denville]

If he gets an annulment of his first marriage, I believe he can.

But he hasn't got an annulment of his marriage. Therefore he can't marry in a Catholic ceremony

 

[Somebody]

WHAT?! 24 years of marriage and three kids?

No wonder people have stopped taking the Church's views on the sanctity of marriage seriously.

To me 'annulments' don't make much sense either... As it seems rarely related to the thoughts about the first marriage but mostly about the wish to have a second one...

The most famous more recent royal annulment was most likely the one of the late Count of Paris (previously Count of Clermont) and the Duchess of Montpensier (previously Duchess Marie Therese of Württemberg).

Marriage: 5 July 1957
Children: 5 (between 1959 and 1968)
Separation: 23 February 1977
Divorce: 3 February 1984
Civil (second) marriage of the Count of Clermont: 31 October 1984
Annulment: 18 November 2008
Religious (second) marriage of the Count of Paris: 26 September 2009 (N.B. Not only had Henri's first marriage been annulled for them to be able to marry religiously; the bride's first husband had passed away at that point allowing her to marry as well)

So, theoretically, in the eyes of the church Henri and Micaëla lived in sin for 25 years but the church was happy to marry them religiously nonetheless when their official requirements of widowhood and annulment were met.

 

[Stefan]

I wish all the best to Louis and Scarlett-Lauren! I hope the couple will be happy and she will be able to cope with her future family-in-law.

As for a potential declaration of nullity for his marriage with Tessy, there are many misconceptions on the subject. The core principle of the whole procedure is to determine whether the marriage was null and void ab initio, at its inception. Therefore, the inquiry is long, often painful for the parties as they have to give a testimony on intimate matters. Canonical judges involved in the matters do all agree on the fact seemingly happy marriages can actually be void and null. Declaration of nullity is not about being pleasant with the mighty and the wealthy faithfuls, although it is true that wealthy and upper-class catholics are more resorting to the process. Declaration of nullity is by no way a privilege conceded to happy-fews but a complex way and a sensible matter.

Think this all is much to complicated. The catholic Church should simply recognize a civil divorce and allow people to marry again in Church This is how the protestant Churches in Germany do it and as far as i know also most other protestant Churches.

 

[Denville]

WHAT?! 24 years of marriage and three kids?

No wonder people have stopped taking the Church's views on the sanctity of marriage seriously.

If there was a flaw in the marriage, at the time of the marraige, it has notihng to do with how long poeple were married or how many children they have. And people who look for annulments clearly DO take the church's views seriously.. otherwise they would not bother with an annulment when it is possible to get a divorce.

 

[Blog Real]

Where will the wedding take place? Will it be in Luxembourg or Paris? or elsewhere? I'm curious.

 

[Sancia]

Think this all is much to complicated. The catholic Church should simply recognize a civil divorce and allow people to marry again in Church This is how the protestant Churches in Germany do it and as far as i know also most other protestant Churches.

I do agree with you as well with Denville.

If there was a flaw in the marriage, at the time of the marraige, it has notihng to do with how long poeple were married or how many children they have. And people who look for annulments clearly DO take the church's views seriously.. otherwise they would not bother with an annulment when it is possible to get a divorce.

IMO, it is always better to look for a possible flaw in the marriage, so that it helps people to get through the failure of their marriage, even with grown up children and after many years of marriage. However, I also think there may be something for people whose marriage is not void and null but has nonetheless failed and who met someone else, for it happens more than a few times.

 

[Mirabel]

Think this all is much to complicated. The catholic Church should simply recognize a civil divorce and allow people to marry again in Church This is how the protestant Churches in Germany do it and as far as i know also most other protestant Churches.

But why kill the goose who lays the golden eggs?
Annulments must be paid for, you know.

 

[sophie25]

But why kill the goose who lays the golden eggs?
Annulments must be paid for, you know.

The Anglican church does not remarry divorced people either and I can understand why they don't up to a point.

 

[Skippy]

Congratulations to Prince Louis and Miss Sirgue on their engagement

He looks like a man on the photos, I like that.

If there was a flaw in the marriage, at the time of the marraige, it has notihng to do with how long poeple were married or how many children they have. And people who look for annulments clearly DO take the church's views seriously.. otherwise they would not bother with an annulment when it is possible to get a divorce.

I totally agree with this. The length of the marriage says nothing about the quality of the marriage.
Sometimes a marriage just doesn't work, no matter how many years a couple (or one of them) may have tried.