Royal-Royal Marriages Today

[morhange]

Well Queen Victoria's descendents inherited hemophilia but hemophilia is actually more common in the normal population than it has been with royals. So being royal really had nothing to do with it.

What other genetic defects are you aware of?

Some of Queen Victoria's descendants suffered from porphyria (sp?) and there's the infamous Habsburg Lip as well, which you can still see among many Habsburg descendants.

Wikipedia has an article about royal intermarriage Royal intermarriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've also noticed that several of the German princes and dukes are still marrying Princesses/Duchesses/Countesses/Baronesses in order to maintain the bloodlines. The laws among Austrian and German royals seem more lax, although I remember reading that Georg-Friedrich, Prince of Prussia was dating Princess--Sophie, I think, of Isenberg. They seem to stick to the nobility.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

The laws among Austrian and German royals seem more lax, although I remember reading that Georg-Friedrich, Prince of Prussia was dating Princess--Sophie, I think, of Isenberg. They seem to stick to the nobility.

Dr. Otto von Habsburg as current head of the Habsburg-Lothringen-family strongly believes in the equality of all people. At least that's a basic law he represented when he was a MP at the European Parliament for Germany. That's probably the reason why he doesn't hesitate to declare even the most exotic wifes of one of his Archdukes as "ebenbürtig" - coequal according to the House laws of the Imperial and Royal family.

It's different with Georg Friedrich von Preussen - he owns his position as current (but equivocal) head of the Hohenzollern-family to the fact that his grandfather Louis Ferdinand disowned his two eldest sons because of their non-equal marriage to commoners. Georg Friedrich is the heir of the third son who had married an coequal noble lady, a countess Castell-Rüdeshausen. His uncle, the eldest son of Louis Ferdinand, has contested this decision. So if Georg Friedrich would marry a commoner himself, he would loose his position according to the laws which granted it to him. So what can he do?

As for the idea of equality which is so important in the former Holy Roman Empire of Germany: I just read the book "The rise of the House of Habsburg" by Gerhard Herm. In it the historian explains the politics which made the Habsburg (which are not one of the oldest ruling families in Germany, the Wittelsbachs or the Welfs are far older) into the most prominent family of Germany for centuries. This rise was based on the idea that each and every Habsburg lived the idea that his family is the most noble and used every mean they possessed to do public relations for that aim. Eg the tile of Archduke: there wasn't such a title at all! But when Habsburg started to rise, the positions of the electing princes were already fixed and there was no place in that august society for the Habsburg-ruler of Austria. Rudolf IV. of Habsburg in 1362 had an idea: as beloved son-in-law of emperor Karl IV. (of the house of Luxembourg), married to the emperor's favorite daughter, he simply faked documents (among them some which claimed to be of Roman (!) descent) and stated that the Habsburgs were the most noble family of the empire, the only family with a right to call their offspring "Arch"duke. The emperor laughed about that, but to please his daughter he did not really act against these fakes. And Rudolf asked of his people to call him "Archduke" from then on. When in 1452 Friedrich III. of Habsburg became emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, he accepted the faked documents officially as "real" and valid.

In addition the Habsburg started to devide the German nobles in equal and non-equal ones. Equal were all who had a seat at the "Reichstag" - priviledges which only the the most mighty and noble family could grant and which meant active power in Germany. Only members of these families could get married to an Habsburg. Of course all families strived to be advanced to this position on remaining loyal to Habsburg... Aconcept that worked till Napoleon in 1806 threw over the Holy Roman Empire, forced the Habsburgs out of Germany and opened up the way for the Prussian Hohenzollern to power in Germany.

So the idea of equality was more a political idea than one about families. It had not much to do with the history of noble families but with their actual power and relationship to Habsburg. There are a lot of "uradelige" (historically noble) families which can trace their lineage back to before 1300 who are not considered of the Higher nobility - that's those who could marry into the House of Habsburg. And there are families of the higher nobility who are not as old as that - eg the Thurn und Taxis, which started out in the 1500s as postmasters of the Habsburgs, but could marry one Royal princess after the other.

Hope this helps a bit on undertsanding the German concept of nobility.

 

[Quin]

It's a real shame that crown princes or princesses are not required to marry equally to suceed to the throne. When royals do not follow historical protocol, they will soon become history. They simply cannot have their cake and eat it too!

To All Those Who Responded:

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for love, but remember royalty / monarchy is about a call to duty. Whether required by law or not, unequal marriages cause wedge issues between monarchies and their subjects.


And yes of course times change, but be advised that it’s these same forces that have led to the abolition of monarchies. The Danes claim that their royal family has taken the role as that of an ideal family. Hard to survive on such a contention, but if that's what the majority of Danes want or the way other royal houses want to end their reigns, so be it. As for commoners, they have done some good but at an expense worth it or not. I will say however commoners have contributed to a healthier gene pools.

I would be most impressed if a royal said that he/she will marry a commoner, forfeit succession rights, financial support and work as sa mall farmers and/or grocers to survive or whatever skill they have without trading on their name. Some royals have taken up such humble occupations, occasioned by the abolition of the monarchy in their respective kingdoms. These types of royals are very impressive. They will do what it takes to survive and pick themselves up from a fall and carry on. This is an ideal if not a virtue. These people should be given more study. Have a couple of books on the subject. Will provide later.

I am not particularly interested in what a royal is wearing, their sexual orientation or other tawdry details. Royal students should resist the loss of this scholarship to fantasy and celebrity. The history of those royals born after 1945 will not be more than a gossip headline. If things go as they have, royal history as we know it will become ancient royal history.


For those attending the Royalty Weekend (Ticehurst UK), I will see you there.

 

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

To All Those Who Responded:

Whether required by law or not, unequal marriages cause wedge issues between monarchies and their subjects.

I don't agree with this statement. It may have been true in the past and certainly of the hardline traditionalists who hold on to the old beliefs about royalty, but I believe there have been many examples (King George VI & Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mum; King Carl XVI & Queen Silvia, The Prince of Orange & Princess Maxima to name a few) that have shown that rather than a wedge, the marriage increased the popularity and loyalty of the monarchy, particularly in the case of Sweden.

I would be most impressed if a royal said that he/she will marry a commoner, forfeit succession rights, financial support and work as sa mall farmers and/or grocers to survive or whatever skill they have without trading on their name. Some royals have taken up such humble occupations, occasioned by the abolition of the monarchy in their respective kingdoms. These types of royals are very impressive. They will do what it takes to survive and pick themselves up from a fall and carry on. This is an ideal if not a virtue. These people should be given more study. Have a couple of books on the subject. Will provide later.

Likewise, I do believe that exploring the lives of these "former" royals and the way they adapted is impressive and inspirational at times. But isn't the study of their lives interesting because of their royal status rather than their "doing what it takes" and "picking themselves up"? Certainly many people in the world do those things. I might be wrong, but IIRC most of the abolition of a monarch has had nothing to do with whom they married, equal or not, but rather how their subjects/citizens perceived them and the manner in which they ruled/governed their respective nations. In fact, the fall of the German monarchies had nothing to with these things. The sovereign authority of those families and nations was taken away as a punishment by the Allied or victorious powers in the wars.

I am not particularly interested in what a royal is wearing, their sexual orientation or other tawdry details. Royal students should resist the loss of this scholarship to fantasy and celebrity. The history of those royals born after 1945 will not be more than a gossip headline. If things go as they have, royal history as we know it will become ancient royal history.
quote]

I have considered myself to be a bit of intellect snob < ed > in the discussions of royalty. However, I choose to participate in this forum where many of the members discuss the fashion, love lives, and "tawdry details" of the royals. In so doing, I choose to be a part of those discussions as well. Certainly, there are a number of threads in this forum that accomplish - even through the discussion of these seemingly trivial things - a greater understanding of royals past and present and sometimes can inspire any of us to be curious and do the research in the more serious (boring) aspects.

All of that being said, I really appreciate your viewpoint and hope to hear more about those royals who became a part of "regular" society. I look forward to the information.

Thanks, Mapper

 

[Quin]

Mapper:

The implicit point of the post is to provoke thought, as it did in your case, and not to seek approval.

The comments are based on historical trends over various periods of time and not in the case of one or a few royal houses. No one (me included) can expect an opinion to be an undisputable fact, and yes there are exceptions to every rule, otherwise there would be no debate.

In the end, I suppose royal history is studied and interpreted like the way scotch is consumed and that’s the way you like it.

Sincerely wishing you the very best.

Q

 

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

Mapper:



In the end, I suppose royal history is studied and interpreted like the way scotch is consumed and that’s the way you like it.


Q

LOL, touche', Quin! By the way I take mine neat.

 

[Saturn]

CP Frederik of Denmark and Princess Märta Louise of Norway.

CP Philippe of Belgium and Infanta Elena of Spain.

CP Haakon of Norway and Infanta Cristina of Spain.

CP Felipe of Spain and Princess Alexandra (or Nathaly) of Denmark, both daughters of Princess Benedikte (in fact, Princess Benedikte was Queen Sophia's bridesmaid. The Queen every year invited the two young princesses to Mallorca, and it is well known that she would have been delighted if one of them had become her daughter in law.

 

[planetcher]

^Isn't Haakon too young for Cristina?

 

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

^Isn't Haakon too young for Cristina?

Well, she is five years older than her husband. What's another five years?

CP Frederik of Denmark and Princess Märta Louise of Norway.

Seems like a good match, Saturn. I hadn't even thought about it. But considering the fun-loving nature of the two, it might have been successful (although, I think Frederik prefers a more "glamorous" type of woman).

CP Felipe of Spain and Princess Alexandra (or Nathaly) of Denmark, both daughters of Princess Benedikte (in fact, Princess Benedikte was Queen Sophia's bridesmaid. The Queen every year invited the two young princesses to Mallorca, and it is well known that she would have been delighted if one of them had become her daughter in law.

This might have been really interesting. Considering that both Queen Ena and Queen Sofia converted to Catholicism, I wonder what preference the Spanish citizens of today would have - Letizia, who was Catholic but had a previous marriage or one of the Berleburg princesses.

Thanks for the responses.

Mapper

 

[acdc1]

I heard that there was speculation that Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden and Prince Albert of Monaco were an item a few years back, but I think it was nothing, they were just hanging out at a party or something. This may be a little off topic, but it's royal-royal relationship, so could somebody confirm this?

I couldn't imagine any royal-royal marriages between the ones who are already married, since I think so many of them are very well-matched, and I couldn't see any others together.

 

[HRH Kerry]

Prince Felipe of Spain and Princess Tatjana of Liechtenstein.

 

[Henri M.]

I heard that there was speculation that Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden and Prince Albert of Monaco were an item a few years back, but I think it was nothing, they were just hanging out at a party or something.

A most unlikely combination for three reasons:

1) Both Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Albert are (future) Sovereigns
2) Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Albert do differ 23 years (!) in age
3) Crown Princess Victoria is Lutheran and Prince Albert is Roman-Catholic

 

[Stefan]

Dr. Otto von Habsburg as current head of the Habsburg-Lothringen-family strongly believes in the equality of all people. At least that's a basic law he represented when he was a MP at the European Parliament for Germany. That's probably the reason why he doesn't hesitate to declare even the most exotic wifes of one of his Archdukes as "ebenbürtig" - coequal according to the House laws of the Imperial and Royal family.

But the last 3 "exotic" brides Maya Askaria, Ashimta Goswami and Mayasuni Heath became all Archduchesses after their marriage. A few years ago the House Laws where again lowered and n o the only requirement has that the bride belongs to an christian faith.

 

[magnik]

Not quite today but...from the past: how about Princess Anne and King Carl XVI Gustaf?

CPss Victoria and one of the Dutch Boys.
CPss Victoria and Nicholas of Greece.

 

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

Not quite today but...from the past: how about Princess Anne and King Carl XVI Gustaf?

Now that would have been interesting, Magnik. Especially considering the previous British brides in Sweden (Margaret of Connaught, Lady Louise Mountbatten) just two generations back.

It certainly would have an affect on the somewhat cool relationship between the two houses that seems to exist now. I can't help but think that the current heirs to the Swedish throne would not be so easy to look at, no offense to the two but I think Carl Gustaf & Anne would have produces very unattractive children.

Mapper

 

[acdc1]

I didn't know there was a cool relationship between the two houses.

And I don't think the children would have been that bad looking. Anne was fairly attractive when she was young, and her children look good. And the King was a very cute little boy. They just haven't aged well.

 

[Alison20]

This is a fun thread so one shouldn't get too serious. But the exchange between Quin and Henri M about whether the 'ebenbuertigkeit' rule was universal among European Royalty is interesting.

From the British perspective, this was always considered a very 'Continental' requirement - particularly among the German-speaking families.

To the best of my knowledge, this was never a requirement of either the English or Scottish royal houses. Although there were often politically useful dynastic marriages in the Middles Ages, and even later on, it was not a necessity, and many monarchs married into the high nobility.

Queen Victoria was extremely liberal in her views. One of her daughters was allowed to marry a non-Royal Scottish Duke (the Duke of Argyll) with no loss of privilege. She often invited members of her distant German relatives who had married into nobility to Britain. These people were not looked on with favour in the Austrian, German, etc. courts. She was quite happy for her grandson to marry Princess Mary of Teck (she became Queen Mary). Although Mary's mother was Pss Mary Adelaide, a British princess and first cousin to the Queen, her father was the son of a Prince of Wurrtemberg who had married merely a noble lady. He lost his right to the throne of Wurrtemberg and was given the non-royal title of Duke of Teck. Since Victoria was a major royal who didn't need the approval of the other monarchs, they just had to 'grin and bear it'.

Even the Edward VIII would probably have got away with marrying Wallis Simpson if she had not been divorced (twice at that).

 

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

I didn't know there was a cool relationship between the two houses.

And I don't think the children would have been that bad looking. Anne was fairly attractive when she was young, and her children look good. And the King was a very cute little boy. They just haven't aged well.

I agree that Anne was more attractive when she was younger, and I believe that she could be more attractive now if she put just a little more effort into it (she still has a great figure). But I believe her children as well look better because their father was a very handsome man. In the same way, I believe that while they aren't both conventionally handsome, the sons of the Prince of Wales are much better looking than their father, due mostly to their mother. Of course, the Duke of Edinburgh's influence is there as well.

Actually I don't think that Carl Gustaf is unattractive (except when he gets that crazy Einstein hair going on). His big eyes and ears that stick out a little do work for him. It was the combination with Anne's gene pool of squinty eyes, long nose and face, oversize horse teeth that I believe would have the current Swedish royal family less than attractive.

As far as the "coolness" between the two families, it's probably something I'm just making up in my head. It just seems that where the Swedes seem beyond cordial with the other royal families, the British seem only "affectionate" with the Dutch, but definitely not with the Swedes. I would describe it more as "professional" and "protocoled". Probably just me, though.

By the way, love your tag acdc!

Mapper

 

[ysbel]

I heard that there was speculation that Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden and Prince Albert of Monaco were an item a few years back, but I think it was nothing, they were just hanging out at a party or something. This may be a little off topic, but it's royal-royal relationship, so could somebody confirm this?

I couldn't imagine any royal-royal marriages between the ones who are already married, since I think so many of them are very well-matched, and I couldn't see any others together.

Didn't Prince Rainier want Albert to marry Bianca d'Aosta at one point?

The daughter of the Duke d'Aosta and the granddaughter of the comte de Paris would have been quite a catch for Albert in terms of bloodline.

I remember she was quite good looking too.

 

[Marengo]

Darn. a pity that he didn't! Bianca is rather pretty indeed, she also featured in the Vanity Fair special about young royals, I believe.

 

[RoyallyRich]

I would prefer to see Royals marry only other Royals.I am not too convinced with all these recent trends of real life Cinderellas.

 

[Next Star]

A most unlikely combination for three reasons:

1) Both Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Albert are (future) Sovereigns
2) Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Albert do differ 23 years (!) in age
3) Crown Princess Victoria is Lutheran and Prince Albert is Roman-Catholic

Responses about Albert and Victoria and also a few corrections.
1) Albert is already soverign meaning that Victoria would have to give up right her to the throne.
2)Albert and Victoria differ in age 19 years and not 23 like you say Herni M.
3)Victoria would have to convert to Roman-Catholic to marry Albert being he is head of state as I mentioned above.

 

[sneeuwklokje]

I really hope that there will be a royal-royal marriage in the next generation. Something like Felix and Catharina-Amalia or one of the Urdangarin boys and Ingrid-Alexandra. And I really do hope we don't get any more "Mabel types".

 

[chaimae]

I really hope that there will be a royal-royal marriage in the next generation. Something like Felix and Catharina-Amalia or one of the Urdangarin boys and Ingrid-Alexandra. And I really do hope we don't get any more "Mabel types".

i hope too , we don't like to see other' MABEL ', but the must amusing think is that the next generation are only womens!!!
Catharina Amalia ; Leaunor ;INGRID ?...so and thereis a lot of boys in the royal familys , i hope that wll hapen

 

[Kotroman]

I think Prince William of Wales and Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark would make a great couple for so many reasons. Please see Preferred Wives For William and Harry for more details.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I think.

Prince William Of Wales & Princess Victoria.
Prince Harry Of Wales & Princess Madeline ( I realise that he would techinically be marrying his sister-in-law)

I think that the matches as they are now, are wonderful they all suit each other perfectly.

However i always think that Princess Anne should have married another royal.
x

 

[kimebear]

I think.

Prince William Of Wales & Princess Victoria.

I think Daniel might have a problem with that one....

 

[HMTLove23]

On August 29th 2009 a Royal-Royal wedding will take Place between Prince Lukas of Auersperg and Princess Alice of Bavaria.

 

[Drottning]

I really hope that there will be a royal-royal marriage in the next generation. Something like Felix and Catharina-Amalia or one of the Urdangarin boys and Ingrid-Alexandra. And I really do hope we don't get any more "Mabel types".

Wouldn't it be something if the younger generation 'rebel' against their parents and make equal marriages.

 

[Lumutqueen]

If Princess Diana had given birth to a girl and the UK had equal primogenture, could she for instance marry say the Danish Crown Prince?
I've always wondered.
Plus i've always wished Princes Charles had a daughter.
x