The will of Lord John Grimaldi of Monaco (1454)

[Louis14]

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Yes but males have precedence over females: Caroline is older than Albert and last time I checked Albert was on the throne...



Yes, and I understand (more or less) that. But in Monaco the reforme was made by a legitimate sovereign, so why don't you accept it? In your eyes a reform made by a legitimete sovereign Prince should have much more value than any French, European or international law, yet to support your thesis you invoke French Republican laws versus a law that Prince Rainier promoted and approved.
Plus, you haven't answered about Princess Charlotte: if natural children always were in line of succession, why did her father adopt her?

Kisses

According to the Fundamental Rule of 1454, Princess Charlotte was dynaste and did not need to be legitimated by her father. Please, read it again on http://www.grimaldi.org, the official site of the House of Grimaldi.

Legitimists support all monarchs who respect the Fundamental Rules of their Sovereign House and who do not change them for personal reasons.

As regards rules of succession it's necessary to pay a great attention in order to avoid the constitution of rival Reigning Houses within the same princely branch.

Nobody would have dared disputed a Rule of succession of six centuries old.

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[acid_rain3075]

Nonsense! Things like change anytime and by anyone!

 

[Grace]

According to the Fundamental Rule of 1454, Princess Charlotte was dynaste and did not need to be legitimated by her father. Please, read it again on http://www.grimaldi.org, the official site of the House of Grimaldi.

Legitimists support all monarchs who respect the Fundamental Rules of their Sovereign House and who do not change them for personal reasons.

As regards rules of succession it's necessary to pay a great attention in order to avoid the constitution of rival Reigning Houses within the same princely branch.

Nobody would have dared disputed a Rule of succession of six centuries old.

Louis-le-14ème.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm dumb but I stil don't get it. So you are against any possible change of every possible rule even if made by the legitimate sovereign? And why is the will of Lord John Grimaldi better than let's say the rules they had in the family until that date? After all the Grimaldis were in Monaco since 1297.
Anyway, an advice: come to term with the facts that we live in the 21st cen and absolute monarchies are the past; nowadays it's the will or at least the opinion of the people that counts, and that keeps the crowns on the heads, not the religious power or the tradition.

Kisses

 

[Louis14]

Let me get this straight... A French Royal Legitimist is advocating French Republican laws to overturn a Ruling Prince's Constitution in regard to succession to the throne so that a clause in a medieval will made 550 years ago forms the basis of succession rights in 2006. Have I got that right?

The fact is that this child was born in a Republican France. It's surely not the fault of Legitimists.

The most important is that Grimaldi had imagined a similar law with the current french law, 550 years ago.

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[Elspeth]

Let me get this straight... A French Royal Legitimist is advocating French Republican laws to overturn a Ruling Prince's Constitution in regard to succession to the throne so that a clause in a medieval will made 550 years ago forms the basis of succession rights in 2006. Have I got that right?

Dead simple, really. Surprised you even had to ask...

 

[Louis14]

Anyway, an advice: come to term with the facts that we live in the 21st cen and absolute monarchies are the past; nowadays it's the will or at least the opinion of the people that counts, and that keeps the crowns on the heads, not the religious power or the tradition.

Kisses

There cannot be monarchy without religion, nor traditions.

Please, can you quote me only one monarchy which does not refer to the religion or the traditions of its country?

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[acid_rain3075]

There cannot be monarchy without religion, nor traditions.

Please, can you quote me only one monarchy which does not refer to the religion or the traditions of its country?

Louis-le-14ème.

I think what your referring to sounds more like a theocracy then a monarchy

 

[Grace]

There cannot be monarchy without religion, nor traditions.

Please, can you quote me only one monarchy which does not refer to the religion or the traditions of its country?

Louis-le-14ème.

They do refer to religion and traditions, of course (well, nowadays more traditions than religion), but we all know that what really keeps them on the throne is the will of the people, not the will of God; religion and traditions are mostly part of folklore. If their populations decide they are no longer useful, royals will be unemployed in no time, and they know this very well. Times have changed, monarchs have accepted it, and maybe you should as well as I see no way (and frankly I really hope) that things will ever go back to prior democracy, constitution, mass society etc. etc.

Kisses

 

[Toledo]

Let me get this straight... A French Royal Legitimist is advocating French Republican laws to overturn a Ruling Prince's Constitution in regard to succession to the throne so that a clause in a medieval will made 550 years ago forms the basis of succession rights in 2006. Have I got that right?

If if we wish to argue full equality of the sexes in regard to succession, and make it retrospective (as a true Legitimist would), then Princess Antoinette is the rightful Reigning Princess of Monaco as she was born (1920) before Prince Rainier (1923). In this scenario the argument over Alexandre is irrelevant because the true Hereditary Princess of Monaco is (Baroness) Elizabeth de Massy.

Albert and Hanovers, Casiraghis and Costas: usurpers out!

Thanks for the short consise version of this tale of contradictions!
You forgot to add the King of Spain would have been a Queen, his older sister.

 

[Elspeth]

A person can't be his own older sister, Toledo. That's science fiction.

 

[Toledo]

A person can't be his own older sister, Toledo. That's science fiction.

I meant Juan Carlos' older...oh...you know

Actually, I recall that most of the Borbones have taken the throne from the hands of their older sisters, so Juan Carlos today would have been a very distantly related cousin of whoever would be the actual king or queen.

 

[Louis14]

I meant Juan Carlos' older...oh...you know

Actually, I recall that most of the Borbones have taken the throne from the hands of their older sisters, so Juan Carlos today would have been a very distantly related cousin of whoever would be the actual king or queen.

King Juan Carlos of Spain forgot that his cousin, Prince Alphonse de Bourbon, the elder of all the descendance of their grandfather, King Alphonse XIII, was excludes from the inheritance order of Spain because of a Rule which excluded any heir of the throne who had married a woman non resulting from a Sovereign House.

What happen today of this Rule which allowed the advent of Juan Carlos on the throne of Spain in 1975? Does the Prince's of Asturies wife come from a Sovereign House?

If this Rule of succession was not respected by King Juan Carlos, then Legitimists of Spain and France will consider that Prince Louis de Bourbon, the son of Prince Alphonse de Bourbon, the elder of all Capetians and all the descendance of King Alphonse XIII, should be the future King of Spain.

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[Toledo]

What happen today of this Rule which allowed the advent of Juan Carlos on the throne of Spain in 1975? Does the Prince's of Asturies wife come from a Sovereign House?

If this Rule of succession was not respected by King Juan Carlos, then Legitimists of Spain and France will consider that Prince Louis de Bourbon, the son of Prince Alphonse de Bourbon, the elder of all Capetians and all the descendance of King Alphonse XIII, should be the future King of Spain.

Louis-le-14ème.

Things are fine in Spain the way they are now, Juan Carlos and Sofia survived all the drama and conspiracies against them in the 1960's, Felipe married out of love and Leonor will be queen one day.

But this Bourbon/Borbon talk should be for another thread, let's stick with the Glamorous Grimaldis

Hmm, the Glamorous Grimaldis, sounds like a good name for a new fashion thread? Anyone feel free to take it, my donation will be just the title!

 

[Louis14]

I think what your referring to sounds more like a theocracy then a monarchy

The currency of Monaco, "Deo Juvante", refers to God clearly. Are they Legitimists who invented that?

The English anthem "God Save The Queen", refers to God clearly. Are they Legitimists who invented that?

Many people on this forum think that monarchy means beautiful dresses and beautiful jewels! Excuse me, but monarchy has nothing to do with all this.

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[Grace]

Excuse me, but nowadays, monarchies have mainly to do with glamour and image. Monarchs have very little power, Monaco being a notable exception, on governing their Countries. I'm sorry, but that's the truth, and I consider it a very important improvement.

Kisses

 

[Juliet]

I think the law was voted 2 years ago, but I wouldn't swear on it. It was definetely initiated by PR as put into action while he was still alive. But there is still a lot of work to be done. BTW children who were born before, have now the right to claim their citizenship and have the same benefits (which are tremendous when you live in MC) as those born to a Monegasque father.

Thanks for the info, I hadn't realised the law had changed. Which benefits do you mean?

 

[acid_rain3075]

The currency of Monaco, "Deo Juvante", refers to God clearly. Are they Legitimists who invented that?

The English anthem "God Save The Queen", refers to God clearly. Are they Legitimists who invented that?

Many people on this forum think that monarchy means beautiful dresses and beautiful jewels! Excuse me, but monarchy has nothing to do with all this.

I do not think that royalty or monarchy in general have everything (or anything) to do with cloths and jewelry! I may be young but do not mistake me for ignorant! Yes, religion may at one point been a major issue of monarchies from around the world! But you are forgetting that in the western world there is a consistent effort for separation of church and state! Religion no longer plays a major role in everyday life! We as a society have moved on since the the medieval era! With of course the exception of Her Majesty the Queen of England, the monarch no longer plays a central role in a country's religious identity (and I doubt even she has the clout for that nowadays). But of course, Monarchs from around the world have lost their power so I can not say that their cloths and jewelry haven't come to the forefront. Anyways, what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

 

[Tosca]

was he really? Do you mean that after he married Caroline he became a citizen because I always thought that he kept his Italian citizenship

I read he was, but actually, I don't know whether his family managed to get the Monegasque citizenship, for tax reasons, so to speak, or he became a citizen by marrying Caroline.
On the occasion of Charlotte's birth, there was a piece of news that cause a great sensation about Stefano, as, in order to avoid joining the Italian army, on being medically examined, he showed some (fake) papers stating he was impotent...But when autoritites found out they'd been cheated, it was obviously too late: he had already became a Monegasque. So I guess he didn't keep his Italian citizenship.

 

[acid_rain3075]

I read he was, but actually, I don't know whether his family managed to get the Monegasque citizenship, for tax reasons, so to speak, or he became a citizen by marrying Caroline.
On the occasion of Charlotte's birth, there was a piece of news that cause a great sensation about Stefano, as, in order to avoid joining the Italian army, on being medically examined, he showed some (fake) papers stating he was impotent...

Well clearly he wasn't! Did this new paper or magazine say why he did that to avoid joining the army? Isn't the Italian army a "volunteer army"?

 

[Tosca]

Well clearly he wasn't! Did this new paper or magazine say why he did that to avoid joining the army? Isn't the Italian army a "volunteer army"?

At that time joining the Italian army was mandatory.It became a "volunteer army" only one year ago. Italians are never been that patriotic.

 

[acid_rain3075]

At that time joining the Italian army was mandatory.It became a "volunteer army" only one year ago. Italians are never been that patriotic.

Oh well see I didn't know that! thanks for the new info Tosca!

 

[Suonymona]

Because of their father's disputed Italian citizenship, could the Casiraghi Trio try for dual Italian citizenship if they wanted to?

Ann

 

[Louis14]

I think what your referring to sounds more like a theocracy then a monarchy

If religion has nothing to do with monarchy, please can you tell us why Princess Caroline asked the Holy Father, the Pope John-Paul II, to legitimate his first three children, in spite of the absence of church wedding?

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[Louis14]

Monaco is not member of the EU. Not at all.

Euro is the official currency of Monaco. Monaco who did not sign the act accession to the EU, must be regarded as being a member of EU. Euro is the currency of the only Member States of the EU, under certain conditions.

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[paca]

Euro is the official currency of Monaco. Monaco who did not sign the act accession to the EU, must be regarded as being a member of EU. Euro is the currency of the only Member States of the EU, under certain conditions.

Louis-le-14ème.

No it is not and this statement just shows how you like to twist and turn facts to suit your own purposes. MC has the Euro because of its treaties with France. Before the currency was the Franc. MC would not be able to support its own currency. The use of the French currency guarantees for MC a stable currency which is necessary to be attractive for investors. San Marino and Andorra are doing the same thing, but are, if I am not mistaken, not members of the EU. There are several members of the EU though which do not have the Euro, but as a French legitimist you are probably still cross with the UK and refuse to consider them a member of the EU I suppose. The Euro is not an indicator of membership in the EU. Please get your facts straight.

 

[Louis14]

You are staring to sound like a broken record when you keep repeating the same things over and over again. We are not stupid. We do get your point, but it just simply doesn't go with the facts.

According to you, the current rule of succession is perfect and corresponds to the Grimaldi spirit.

Please, can you tell us why this rule is so criticized by the members of the House of Grimaldi? Do not forget that Grimaldi of Monaco form part of the same House.

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[paca]

According to you, the current rule of succession is perfect and corresponds to the Grimaldi spirit.

Please, can you tell us why this rule is so criticized by the members of the House of Grimaldi? Do not forget that Grimaldi of Monaco form part of the same House.

Louis-le-14ème.

Which members? And the reason why they would? because they have their own interests. As far as I know there is a distant relation living in France who claims that, if succession rules would have been followed, he would be running MC now. Problem is, then MC was worth nothing, now it is worth billions. So why would someone want to get his hands on it? Beats me

 

[Grace]

If religion has nothing to do with monarchy, please can you tell us why Princess Caroline asked the Holy Father, the Pope John-Paul II, to legitimate his first three children, in spite of the absence of church wedding?

Louis-le-14ème.

You tell me...

BTW, Monaco is definitely not a member of EU; as far as I know they would like to accede though. And they recently joined the Council of Europe (a completely different organization, but still an important one).

Kisses

 

[Louis14]

MC has the Euro because of its treaties with France. Before the currency was the Franc. MC would not be able to support its own currency. The use of the French currency guarantees for MC a stable currency which is necessary to be attractive for investors.

I agree with you.
The sovereignty of Monaco, compared to France, is not total.
As monarchist, I feel very close to Monaco and this situation does not delight me, but it deserves to be underlined for our US colleagues who think that Monaco is really independent.

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[Suonymona]

If religion has nothing to do with monarchy, please can you tell us why Princess Caroline asked the Holy Father, the Pope John-Paul II, to legitimate his first three children, in spite of the absence of church wedding?

Louis-le-14ème.

Caroline didn't ask the Pope to legitimize her three older children. She petitioned for her marriage to Junot to be annulled-meaning in the eyes of the church, it never took place. Neither her ceremony to Junot or to Stefano took place in a church, but they were religiously binding.

By the Junot marriage never having taken place in the eyes of the Church, her marriage to Stefano Casiraghi became her first and thus her children were recognized as 'legal'.

If the annullment had been rejected, Caroline would still (as long as Junot is living) be considered married to him (in the eyes of the Church) and thusly her children by Stefano AND Ernst would be considered illegitimate, born of unrecognized marriages.

Funny how when corrected on one angle, you take another tact Louis. Just why did you join these Forums?

And calling yourself a monarchist and legitamist while arguing over the validity of a 250+year old will is like calling yourself a Marxist-Leninist and saying Communism is bad.

Ann

ETA spelling error